Although he was the central cog in one of the most dynamic and important bands in rock and roll history, Wayne Kramer refuses to live in the shadow of his accomplishments with The MC5. That's not to say that he doesn't respect his past or what it meant - rather it's just that he doesn't want to be trapped by it. As he says, "I have a dear friend who describes the New Year as a clean sheet of paper. Pristine and flawless. Unmarked by the past and open to possibilities that are, as yet, unknown and unexplored."

With Adult World, Kramer has taken on the challenge of writing and performing meaningful rock and roll music for adults who also refuse to recycle their past and rest on their accomplishments. Like the shark that must keep swimming to survive, Kramer knows that continuing to open himself to new influences and possibilities is the only way to remain vital. And while a documentary about his band (The MC5: A True Testimonial) may seem revisionist in 2002, for Kramer it's closure to "the last great untold story of the sixties."

An animated conversationalist, Kramer occasionally pauses before carefully choosing a word or metaphor, much like a songwriter should. He took time to talk with us in late May about the songs on the new record, artists who get his nod of approval and the challenge of being an artist in today's climate. Then and now, Wayne Kramer's legend is intact.

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Cosmik: We're excited to see your first new music in five years. Fill me in on who is playing on the new record.

Wayne: The rhythm section is Doug Lunn, who's a wonderful bass player that's been with me in my touring bands for the last six years. And on drums is Eric Gardner...Syd Straw sings the duet with me on "What About Laura." The Hellacopters, a great Swedish rock band, play and sing with me on "Talkin' Outta School." And on "Nelson Algren Stopped By," that's the Chicago avante garde experimental outfit X Mars X featuring Mars Williams on saxophone. And then being the egoist that I am, I do everything else!

Cosmik: When I heard the line I Brought A Knife To A Gunfight I immediately thought of Sean Connery's line in The Untouchables. Of course, it's a relationship song, but was there any connection in the selection of the metaphor?

Wayne: To a movie?

Cosmik: He had a line in The Untouchables where a guy came into his apartment to kill him. And as this guy was sneaking up behind him to stab him, Connery's character whirled around and pointed a gun at the assailant, who of course started to back away. And as the guy ran away, Connery yelled after him "Just like a wop! Bring a knife to a gunfight!"

Wayne: Ah-haha! I didn't know that!

Cosmik: You had so many Chicago references and so many film noir references that I thought the line hit you like it hit me and you used it as a title.

Wayne: I was trying to think where I first heard it. Someone in conversation or somewhere was describing being "a day late and a dollar short;" it kind of represented the whole idea of never being enough, of always being less than.

Cosmik: You used "day late and a dollar short" in there as well as a couple of others.

Wayne: Well, once I got started digging into it a little bit I realized that there were a lot of ways to express that feeling in a literary sense or an idiomatic expression. So I'm just trying to address that feeling in me. You know, "ahhh...how come I'm always the one on the outside?" And of course, I hope that it has a gentleness to it, and not a desperateness.

Cosmik: Actually, I had been thinking about other lines in there like "Inside a suit of armour/I come up a little short," where I feel you're saying you're not really self-confident, but you can't tell from the outside.

Wayne: Right.

Cosmik: And then "I need a secret weapon/I need a little more," taking it one step further, I thought it was actually one of the few times that you sound not in control. I didn't think it was so much of a desperation thing. More of an uneasiness, especially in a relationship. where you're in over your head, and you don't want to blow it. You're not quite sure of what to do, but it's like... you're expected to.

Wayne: Yeah, I think you're getting it exactly. It has to do with wearing faces...or being disingenuous. Or selling yourself short. In the end, these things are kind of defects of character. This is something to rise above...if I could. But I can't! (laughs) But at least that character can, or at least he recognizes it, and is working on it.

Cosmik: It seems like it's his own personal issue, especially with the "armour" line. To everyone else he doesn't look incapable of measuring up but inside it's like "maybe.... if I could only reach back a bit maybe I won't get caught." He's churning inside.

Wayne: It's all an inside job!

Cosmik: Great! Another song I liked right away was Great Big Amp. I think it goes without saying that you are an enduring rock and roll legend. And this song sounds like someone starting out ready to go grab at the world. But I'll bet it's no easier to get a grip on the future now than before - times might have been tougher but you had a clearer target. Even the forced patriotism of 9/11 has shown cracks after only a year. Last September we were all brothers again, but it sure seems to have dissipated in a short few months.

Wayne: Six months!

Cosmik: It seemed like after the initial movement stopped, everyone just went back to doing what they were doing (before). But I always liked the independent voice anyway. This guy is going to grab that guitar and grab that amp and go get 'em.

Wayne: That was part of it. Another part is that the protagonist, the character in the song, actually thinks that by owning this piece of equipment that somehow his world is going to become complete. And there's a danger in thinking that places and things can fix me. Because in the end they can't. I mean if it were just a matter of getting a big amp and it's all going to be okay, then everyone would get a big amp! (laughs) I read an interview with a guy who was in one of those seventies hair metal bands - I don't remember if it was Motley Crue or Poison - you know that whole string of really awful bands like Ratt? And the guy was being very honest in the interview and talking about how everything went very wrong later on, but he said "for a while there we had it all! We had the lights! And we had the big amps! And we had the girls!" And I just thought that that was so charming, you know? (laughs) That this was his measure of accomplishment, that he had a big amp! (laughs). And then I thought, "damn, that's me!" That's what I thought for a long time, too, so that allowed me to open up a door and go inside myself and see just what it was that I was trying to accomplish with my big amp. And it was that I was trying to fix a hole in me, and if I just had that thing - if I just had the car, or the girl, or the home, or the pair of shoes - then it would be okay. But of course, things can't fix me. Again it's that same thing about it being an inside job.

Cosmik: Even Eddie Cochran knew that!

Wayne: Yeah! (laughs) Yeah...

Cosmik: But hey, a lot of guys got into rock and roll to get laid. Then a lot of other people got into it because they wanted to express themselves, and a lot of people probably were a combination of the two. Back in the sixties, even when there was supposed to be a movement, you guys were hung out to dry by being the only band to show up for the rally at the Democratic National Convention. Now being a rebel means Wilco getting kicked off a label, resurfacing and selling the same record back to the parent label. Flipping the bird to the big three record companies. But in actuality it's a band deemed unmarketable for teenybopper radio saying "this is the record we want to make and no, we don't want to redo it." It's amazing that this could be the most rebellious statement in music in the last five years.

Wayne: Well, I think that whole Wilco drama speaks to a generation of musicians that I'm part of, even though those guys are a bit younger than me. I think we're all sharing the same thing. The package we were sold about stardom and fame is not the package that we ended up with and it doesn't do the things we thought it was going to do. We're trying to find a different way to have a career and to do this kind of work where we're able to sleep at night with ourselves. It has more to do with new music for adults, as we've all grown up with rock and roll. Rock and roll has been around for a long time. It's important to many of us that music has a place in our lives and a role to play and a function that it serves. What we're talking about is not what teenagers are talking about. I'm not the same man I was at nineteen when I was screaming "kick out the jams" and railing against...everything! (laughs) And I'm not the man I was at twenty-nine or thirty-nine either. I think we're in a different time now, and there's a line in the sand between the way the business is operated on a major level - force-feeding bullshit youth culture back to the youth and scraping the money off - and those of us who are actually trying to do something. Trying to write a song that actually might say something to somebody, or do a gig that people would enjoy and not feel like they're at a video game.

Cosmik: After so many years - and I think the album title says it all - you're writing adult music for adults. The mass marketing and the product placement, and what's on television - this lowest common denominator stuff - is targeted at the same youth wallet. But for music that's not much different than when we were kids. Maybe we looked upon the music as being of better quality, but what adult doesn't? You could talk with a thirteen year old kid now who would argue that Limp Bizkit and Britney Spears - depending upon what gender the kid is - is as critical and crucial musically and lyrically as anything their parents listened to.

Wayne: And they would have a point!

Cosmik: Because it's music that's for them and by them, as it should be.

Wayne: Exactly.

Cosmik: Well, it's like when we found artists that spoke to us, be it Hendrix or Dylan or someone else that took a step above the rest. And you took notice and followed it and said "wow, this is special." You'd hope that there would be a group of people today who would want to seek out and find greatness, but radio is different, plain and simple. Where sixties radio played rock and folk and soul and Motown and even Dean Martin, you had all these things on the same stations. And now things are strictly programmed and formatted so that you have someone who gets unwillingly and unknowingly tunneled into one form of music, and they don't even know what they are missing because they're not getting exposed to it so they can make a conscious choice.

Wayne: Listening has been ghettoized. Everything is set so that one camp is pushed over into this corner. The rock guys are over here and the rock-rap guys are over there, and the alternative guys are over there. The SoCal punk guys are over here, but the emo-punk guys are over there. (laughs)

Cosmik: It's about the categorization of the sound rather than about the music itself. And it's tough!

Wayne: Well, it's a different time. Their attention span is...well, let's just leave that one there. (laughs)

Cosmik: Well, like we said, you're making adult music for adults! The industry is geared towards the youth culture but we have so many more outlets.

Wayne: Well, eighty percent of it is geared towards the youth culture. But that leaves twenty percent of it for those of us who are interested in things like Czechoslovakian reggae music.

Cosmik: For things that are out there that you have to dig and find. And now you've got more cable channels, satellite radio, the DVD market. You've got a lot more ways of reaching someone who wants to be reached, and you've got the Internet, which is the best marketing tool you could ever want. So shouldn't there be a bigger venue for political rock and roll, creative rock and roll? Intelligent rock and roll, for lack of a better phrase? And does it come down to guys like you starting your own record company and saying "let's go!"?

Wayne: Yeah.

Cosmik: Back to the record. Your title track, Adult World, seemed like yet another disillusioned view of the future. But I really liked the sound, like film noir as almost garbage can rap - very interesting instrumentation throughout the song. You've explored these spoken rhythms over the last couple of records. I know you've worked with Henry Rollins, Pere Ubu, Don Was and other unique visionaries. Do you consider yourself someone who is still openly influenced, musically, or someone whose vision is just using a different vehicle?

Wayne: It's both, really. The more open my mind can be, the broader my expression can be. It's when my mind closes and I'm going with preconceived ideas, or going into my yesterdays. I carry a file cabinet around in my head with all my yesterdays in it. And if I dig into there at the exclusion of what's in front of me, my future is my past. But if I keep my mind open, I can hear what's going on and there's new life that comes in. An artist...a songwriter is kind of like a sportscaster calling a fight. It's a combination of really gruesome and brutal but also beautiful at the same time. You gotta watch the fight! You gotta pay attention! You can't just make it all up.

Cosmik: How do you feel as you're in this creative process? Do you feel energized that "okay, this is the new way of marketing and I'll get my stuff out and see what happens? I'm still here and I feel like I'm making some vital music? I've got a ton cranked out and ready to go!" Or is it "I've got a ton of work to do to hit this niche market that I have to aim for?" Not that you'd be putting marketing ahead of the music, but just that there's a smaller group, and you're excited to find that they're there?

Wayne: (long pause)...Yes. (laughs)

Cosmik: (laughs) Yes? Okay, this time I'll ask you a short question and you can talk for three minutes!

Wayne: (laughs)

Cosmik: I saw something recently where you mentioned liking The Hives. And I know you work with The Hellacopters, who rock. Along with The White Stripes and The Strokes, these bands are getting the kind of hype and press that rock bands haven't gotten in ten years. But it all really goes back to the roots sound - Velvet Underground or what have you - so do you think it's time for pure, unadulterated rock and roll to cycle into fashion again? Or did the suits finally figure out how to market rebellious music better than before?

Wayne: Umm...

Cosmik: In other words, do you think it's an honest movement or a manufactured one?

[Pictured: The White Stripes]

Wayne: I think all this stuff starts with the musicians themselves. This is an artist-driven movement if you will. These guys love this kind of music; high-energy, guitar driven. But I wouldn't really put The White Stripes in with The Hives and The Strokes. I mean as much as I love The Hives for their sheer exuberance, the purity of their spirit and just their pure joy, The White Stripes have a whole other thing going on. They have more of a singular vision. This guy Jack, it's really his take on it, and what he's doing is really a fundamental departure to the band business. I mean the way he has formalized his ideas, the way he sings the song and conceives the song, it's pretty radical departure. The other bands - Strokes, Hives, et al - they're all pretty much verse/chorus/verse/chorus, two guitars bass and drums, to varying degrees of retro rock. It seems they're really reaching back to something else where...have you heard the Bellrays?

Cosmik: I've heard of them. The band from DC?

Wayne: No, the one from L.A. You see I think The Bellrays are reaching forward. I think the White Stripes are reaching forward. They've (both) taken the language and they've pushed it forward. And no, I don't think the industry has figured this out. I don't think the industry is that smart. When the industry thinks they're figured something out, we end up with three hundred and fifty thousand rap-rock bands. Because it worked once or twice, you know? Or we end up with three hundred and fifty thousand Linkin Parks or Britney Spears. That's what happens when the industry thinks they've figured something out. These other artists we are talking about figured out what they wanted to do and they've championed their cause.

Cosmik: It's interesting to me because the last time this happened and bands just said "screw everything that's going on, let's try this."..well, as far as I'm concerned I have to go right past grunge and back to punk rock. In your song The Slime That Ate Cleveland you infer that the punk scene...well, (laughs) blew chunks, save one or two bands. And I found it amazing that you thought (laughs)... I mean the lines "but one refrain/of Love Train/and we got Cleveland back." Now I know you love Motown - as do I - but are you telling me The O'Jays were better or more vital than The Pretenders? Or were you just picking on The Dead Boys?

Wayne: Well, actually I think The O'Jays were better than all those bands (laughs). But I never took the song that seriously - I just thought it was a good rhyme! (laughs)

Cosmik: Well, there I go reading too much into your lyrics again!

Wayne: I was trying to lighten up a little! (laughs) Nah, I really like all those bands, but I was just trying to touch all the markers from bands of that area, y'know?

Cosmik: Well, you did say once that you didn't like the punk movement and were glad you missed it because "being gobbed on is not my idea of a good time."

Wayne: In fact I did say that and I still believe that.

Cosmik: I stand by that myself! (laughs) But I have an old project you did with Johnny Thunders - Gang War, I believe - which in retrospect must have been just as frustrating as the last days of the MC5. Knowing that there's great potential but then the drugs come in to play. Knowing that it could and should work, but here's a brilliant guy who would sell his guitars to get a fix. What was it like -

[Photo by Mick Cusimano of http://mcusiman.tripod.com. Pictured: Wayne Kramer and Johnny Thunders]

Wayne: Working with Johnny? Because I had already been through that in the MC5, and it's all entirely... predictable. Once the disease of alcohol or drug addiction is...empowered, it's all really predictable. You could almost chart the thing. And then my ego steps in and I think "I'm more powerful, I can fix it." And of course, I'm not more powerful and I can't fix it, and what happens is what always happens. Johnny ended up living a lot longer than I thought he would. But there was never any question that he wasn't going to live that long.

Cosmik: Amazing and tragic. Back to the record, there was another couple of songs that I wanted to ask about. Nelson Algren Stopped By - yet another noir reference and a beat jazz framework that explodes like the closing moments of a film where the character is spiraling towards his desperate end. Did you know Algren personally? He's obviously a kindred spirit - uncompromising artist, imprisoned, censored, went through a lot of the same things you went through in your career.

Wayne: No, but I certainly identified with him.

Cosmik: You mention him and Jim Thompson, among others. Are you a big pulp fan, noir fan?

Wayne: Pretty much, you know, I love the hardboiled writing. That old school of Dashiell Hammett -

Cosmik: James Cain...

Wayne: Even Jimmy Breslin. You know, just...bare-knuckled writing. The unadorned ...the hard truth of it all.

Cosmik: Me too. But what's great is that in the middle of this record you have something like What About Laura which, despite its fatalistic tale, is - along with "Great Big Amp" - as close to a pop song as anything you've ever done. Well, except for the last few seconds! (laughs)

Wayne: (laughs) Well, you know, I guess I'm trying to...not be getting caught up in being Wayne Kramer so much, and just let the music take me where it's going to take me. And if it takes me to a direction that's a pop song, then...listen, you can try too hard to be on the cutting edge. And after a while it starts cutting you off from everything else. And I don't want to be cut off, I want to be a part of it. I want to be connected to my times and to the world that I live in, and to my friends and to art and to storytelling. The entire spectrum of what my life could be...that there's good parts and there's painful parts, and it's all part of it. I don't want to just focus on one dark little corner of it all, so every now and then something sneaks out that's kind of...fun! (laughs)

Cosmik: No, I wasn't trying to accuse you of commercializing or avoiding commercialization. I just felt that there was an interesting juxtaposition of what was happening musically and lyrically in that song. For what was happening to the character in that song, the music was conversely upbeat and poppy.

Wayne: Oh, yeah!

Cosmik: Well, like Talkin' Outta School with The Hellacopters backing you up, is one of the few fierce rockers on the record, but I found the album to be more ferocious lyrically than musically. And I think you're a great storyteller. I think these are strong characters and some of the songs almost sound like treatments for films. Like three-minute character studies that could be taken well beyond the song in another medium.

Wayne: Well, I take that as a high compliment. Thank you very much.

Cosmik: You're welcome. Speaking of film, and I might be behind the eight ball on this, but I seem to remember something about a documentary you were working on about the MC5. I believe a lot of work was done on that recently, but that is not out yet, correct?

Wayne: Not out yet, but I did just come back from Chicago where I saw an advance screening of it.

Cosmik: Ah, so it's done!

Wayne: Oh, it's very done!

Cosmik: It sounds amazing, from the tone of your voice.

Wayne: Yeah, they...they did the job. It's two and a half hours long, and they left no turn unstoned (laughs). They really tell the story from the beginning to the end, in great detail, with tremendous live footage. They found four and a half hours of never before seen MC5 performance footage. It was assembled beautifully, and the story is told through the surviving band members, the rest of the people in the sphere of the band - the widows, the producers, managers, business people, friends. Great footage, great editing...you know I'm really very happy that the story is going to be told, at least one time, really well. It's the last great untold story of the sixties.

Cosmik: Will this be something that will be released theatrically, released to the home video market?

Wayne: The story is basically about me and about my band, and I helped them make the movie, but it's actually not my movie. It's their movie! (laughs)

Cosmik: Sure, I know that. What I meant was how do people like me get to see the film?

Wayne: The plan that they tell me is in place is to go for a theatrical release. Then, from that, will evolve the DVD or television markets and wherever else they go with it. I'm pretty sure it won't make it to VH-1! (laughs)

Cosmik: Probably not!

Wayne: Yeah, I hope not! (laughs). But they did a great job on it, I'm really happy with it. It's a little strange for me to sit and watch a movie about myself, you know, and my guys...what we went through.

Cosmik: The MC5 got a nice Retrospective a couple of years ago on Rhino. Obviously there's been a lot of influence from your band over the years. Do you hear from musicians who you influenced, or is it just silent homage that you can pick up on your own?

Wayne: No, I hear it a lot. And I'm really grateful - it's always nice to be recognized for the work that you've done. But musicians themselves have always given The MC5 mad props, and that really means more to me than the general public, y'know, because musicians generally are who I'm playing for. I read where Stephen King said that every writer is basically writing for one or two other people. He said he writes for his wife, and if his wife likes it, then he knows he wrote something good.

Cosmik: She must buy a shitload of books, too!

Wayne: Yeah! (laughs) And I think if I look at The MC5 and people who hear the MC5 as being the "other musicians," well, when they say that they like it, that's what means a great deal to me. Listen, I'm very grateful, y'know? I'm breathing in and out today, and considering the alternative, I've got a lot to be grateful for.

Cosmik: That's true. I know a guy who's out on the road, a guy named Eddie Hamell, whose act is called Hamell On Trial -

[Pictured: Eddie Hammell]

Wayne: I know about Eddie Hamell.

Cosmik: - and he closes his show with the triumvirate of Johnny Cash, The Ramones and The MC5. Big, Big fan of yours.

Wayne: Wow!

Cosmik: So there are guys out there who are preaching the gospel every day. I didn't know whether you knew about him or not, he's a compelling storyteller.

Wayne: How's he doing?

Cosmik: Great now. I don't know whether you knew that he had a pretty serious accident last year.

Wayne: Yeah, I heard.

Cosmik: Recovered, thankfully. I know Ed for a while, and was fortunate enough to get out to Dan's Bar in Denton Texas last year to see his first show back. His head was more staples than skin...I mean he's pretty scary looking anyway, but he was very scary looking that night. But he blew the roof of the place that night! Then later he put out the live record he recorded on the Ani tour, and now he's all over Europe kicking ass and getting a lot of great press. So here's another guy trying to hit that twenty percent you talk about that want something a little more intelligent and a little more thought provoking, and thank God he's never given up. And he's got a big amp (laughs).

Wayne: Please send me an email with his info on it because I'm a huge fan, and he's the kind of guy I'd like to get to know better. Maybe we could even conspire up on some things.

Cosmik: He's a hell of a guy. I'm sure he'll freak when he hears from you, because he's a huge fan of yours as well. I guess my last question is what's next for you - will there be a tour to support the record, and possibly the MC5 film?

Wayne: June 25th for a United States tour - twenty-five shows in twenty-eight days, I think. Then a European tour and then more US dates at the end of the year into the beginning of the next year. I'm really going to carry the message to the people. The band is sounding spectacular. I've been very lucky in getting together a lineup of cats who really understand what I'm trying to do and have the temperament and the ability to play the way I think things should be played. I'm really looking forward to it and I'm really excited to be going back on the road. You know - get up in the morning and go to work! I'm from Detroit, you know? I'm a blue collar guy. I take honor in going to work! (laughs)


Thanks to Susan Clary for hooking me up, to Dr. Bristol for the transcription, and especially to Wayne Kramer for continuing to kick out those jams in new and different ways. For the latest tour dates and other news, check Wayne's website at www.waynekramer.com.

(C) 2002 - Bill Holmes