Frank Zappa is dead but there are more than a few bands that are still playing his demanding music, as daunting a task as that may be.

Perhaps foremost among them is Project Object from New York. Originally the members were brought together by Andre Cholmondeley just to play Zappa music as a birthday celebration. Over the years the band began to play actual gigs, often featuring renditions of entire albums, such as 1975's One Size Fits All.

Project Object has often worked with Ike Willis, who was Frank Zappa's lead vocalist longer that anyone else. He sang the part of Joe in what is arguably Zappa's greatest single album, Joe's Garage. Single album? Sorry, triple album. Perhaps that's why it was never performed on stage all the way through by Zappa himself, but Project Object has done that.

Mostly known on the East Coast, Project Object is now on tour to parts West and that was sufficient occasion to talk with Ike about his career with Frank, his solo work and, of course, his current tour with Project Object.

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Cosmik: You started tenure with Zappa in the Joe's Garage sessions, right?

Willis: Yeah. The Sessions for Joe's Garage were '79, starting in June I believe, or May.

Cosmik: Over the years Frank went through at least a half dozen major guitarists, several bassmen, keyboard players and drummers and four or five singers to boot. I know you're definitely the longest-term vocalist he had, but you must be one of the longest-term Zappa band members of any kind.

Willis: I am THE longest.

Cosmik: I thought so, but it wasn't anywhere in the material that I was handed.

Willis: Nah, it's never bandied about.

Cosmik: Didn't Ray White come in about the same time you did? It seems like he's on a lot of stuff that you are.

Willis: He came in in '76, he did two tours then he came back in '80 and then back again in '84, but I was there throughout.

Cosmik: That was a really interesting period in Zappa's career, arguably the best. You weren't on Sheik Yerbouti, but starting with that record and then Joe's Garage of course, You Are What You Is, Tinseltown Rebellion, I guess all the way up through Man from Utopia, so many incredible pieces of work came out in the same period. And most are double albums and Joe's is a triple, even. I guess it depends how you count them, but inside of that late 70's early 80's year period he released six, maybe eight or more, really great albums.

Willis: Oh yeah! We were turning them out, man. "The stupider it is, the better we like it!" as Frank used to say. He was always prolific, but what it boils down to, I guess from my viewpoint, is that he started having fun again. When I met him at the beginning of the Sheik Yerbouti Tour he wasn't having as much fun.

Cosmik: Why do you think that was?

Willis: That's what he told me. Because, ahh, ticket sales weren't going all that great, he didn't have a front man for lead vocals and stuff, somebody to prowl the stage like Nappy (Napoleon Murphy Brock) used to, but he was looking for something different also. He didn't want to sing as much anymore, he didn't want to do the lead vocal parts anymore, he was missing the harmonies. He's a Doo-Wop guy, as you well know; that's his heart. He's a doo-wop guy and he was missing all that. Musically, it just wasn't clicking. As usual, every year there were killer musicians lined up that want to play with him but, still, (pauses) The combinations weren't working anymore, that's the way he explained it to me... And once he hired me... I not saying I had anything to do with it, cause I really... I can't take credit for that, no way. But I'm saying I'm a silly guy, he's a silly guy, for some reason we just really hit it off and we just spent a lot of time just laughing our asses off. Just really having fun, just really having a good time and laughing about politics and whatever. He'd come to rehearsals with pieces of paper under his arms and say, "Here Ike!" He'd just enjoy saying, "Sell that tune!" and every day he'd start churning out more and more shit, just totally prolific!

Cosmik: So, how did you ever link up with Frank?

Willis: I met him when my wife and I were in college. One of our classmates was the head of the concert committee, so I basically begged him to let me be on the local crew, so I could schlep equipment and check him out.

Cosmik: Which college was that?

Willis: Wash U. Washington University, St. Louis. Basically at the end of the sound check we ended up meeting and talking and hit it off pretty well. After a while he told me to give him my address, phone number and all that stuff, because he held auditions every year. Needless to say I went for that like the proverbial ton of bricks, which was very, very cool and it turned out to be great.

Cosmik: I take it you had been singing for quite some time before that.

Willis: Yeah! Since I was two. I started playing guitar when I was eight... then I started running my own bands when I was nine, so by the time I met Frank I had been at least semi-professionally gigging for money. I got an early start. I didn't know any better, it was the 60s it was rock and roll, but lots of fun.

Cosmik: I bet you can really relate to the role of Joe, then!

Willis: Oh yeah! Needless to say, he didn't write that for nothing!

Cosmik: There have been very few people in my life that have affected me as much as Frank has. When I had a chance to interview him back in 76 I leapt at it, but boy was I nervous at meeting him because I really didn't know what to expect.

Willis: Well the thing is on top of his music, no matter what you've heard about him, the rumors about his reputation that he was an asshole and he's such a hard case to work with, he was a human being! A beautiful guy. He was a great guy, he really was! And I told him that one time and he said, "Shhh! Quiet!" (Laughs) I said if people really knew what kind of a teddy bear kind of a terminal slob kind of guy you really are, you'd be out of business in five minutes!" and he goes "Quiet! Don't tell anybody that, I'll never live it down!" He really was that kind of guy, man. He was one of the nicest people I ever met, even though on the outside, the public persona would belie that, you know what I mean? But that's another one of those complexities, one of those dichotomies that Frank was know for.

Cosmik: Yeah, I was well into my twenties, but I felt like a little kid when I was around him.

Willis: Yeah, you just never know what to expect. He was just so full of surprises.

Cosmik: The guy was just so bloody smart!

Willis: That's it, that's really it! He was plainly, clearly, the most intelligent human being I ever met. No question about it. Hands down.

Cosmik: He could do so many things--Guitarist, Satirist, Producer--and in addition to the rest of Zappa's resume, you have to include Band Leader.

Willis: Oh, no question! That's the thing that's the reason why I was around as long as I was, because I wanted to learn as much as humanly possible for as long as humanly possible. You can't pay money for that kind of musical education! That's basically it.

Cosmik: I'm always interested in how musicians put together their art. How did Frank work? When Frank got you into the project, did he like, always bring sheet music to the sessions?

Willis: Oh no, at least not with me, cause I don't read music... but if there are sight readers in the band and they prefer to use the charts, they do. But essentially he would come in and verbalize and say "well, Ike, pick up your guitar, here's what we're going to do. Do this this many times," or just "do this this way until I tell you to stop." And the thing is, it would seem on the face of it kind of haphazard and disorganized, but it was extremely organized chaos, if you know what I mean.

Cosmik: What was his manner with his musicians? Was he the type to really get upset when people didn't do it exactly that way he said it the first time?

Willis: Well it depends on the musician... if you were really trying your best and trying hard and not up there trying to show off and go "hi girls!" know what I mean? You're not jerking yourself off and it's an honest mistake, he'd bend over backwards to help and point out hey look here, let's try to make this easier to do. He would make sure in the light of a new day that you understood what was required and how to extract the most amount of fun from that particular part or whatever it was.

Cosmik: I knew he could always write music down but I was curious exactly what process he'd used in the studio to get people to do some of the really intricate stunts that he required, the complex time changes and all that.

Willis: Oh, he'd use the usual things, flattery, intimidation, fear. (Laughs) All the great historical standbys, he knew them all. He was an extremely adept teacher professor; he was incredible at it.

Cosmik: I can imagine. After all, he had so many different people and personalities that went on to bigger things.

Willis: Sure, every year!

Cosmik: I guess at this point we can ask the obvious questions: what was your favorite song? What was the hardest one to learn?

Willis: Hmm. Both are semi-impossible questions, only because of the sheer body of work and there are so many goods ones... There were so many that were so good that I don't have a favorite favorite. That's the thing, you have to log in to categories. You know, what kind of song is it? Does it fall into X category or Y category, and the same thing happens to albums. Probably the sentimental favorite would be Joe's simply because it's my first one, but again it depends on the category, depends on the year.

Cosmik: It's such an incredible piece of work. "Watermelon in Easter Hay" still knocks me out.

Willis: I was there. I don't play any guitar on that one, I just did vocals on Joe's. I did guitars on every one after that.

Cosmik: Anyway, I know what you're saying when it comes to pulling favorites out of such a huge catalogue, I have virtually everything that he commercially released and I'd be hard pressed to narrow it down, too. Actually some of the stuff I treasure most is the spoken word material, interviews and thing. You know Gail (Zappa) has released almost every conceivable pass on Frank's music, but I would love to see a series on Frank's interviews and other spoken word pieces.

Willis: Omigod, his speeches and his lectures! He was one of the most well spoken and hilarious and politically insightful guys of all time!

Cosmik: I wrote him a couple letters over the years after I interviewed him, like when he testified in front of the Senate Committee. I made sure that he knew it was appreciated out there.

Willis: He really did appreciate stuff like that, that he wasn't wasting his time and that there were people out there who were listening, believing in what he was into. Definitely just that kind of guy.

Cosmik: Tell me more about Project Object--you met them all they way back in 1984?

Willis: Well, Andre (Cholmondeley) who's the leader of the band and one of the drummers, Mumbo, yeah I met them back in 84, way back when they were kids (laughs). Let's see where were we playing? New York I think, or Jones Beach and just sort of ambling around before the show and I ran into Andre outside, out front at some point in time and we just struck up a conversation and just sort of hit it off from there. So I got them into the show and took them backstage, and I'd run into them every now and then. It turns out we have a mutual friend who now lives out here in Portland who grew up with them. And he'd keep me posted on what's going on with Andre and those guys.

Project Object started out like just a annual Zappa birthday party kind of a jam thing. And it turns out that these guys didn't realize how good they were (and eventually) they said, "Well c'mon, this should be a band, we shouldn't be wasting this!" And they ARE that good. It evolved essentially into, you know, not just a cover band, not just a jam band but this is like, ahh, it's, it's different! This is no ghost band, this is a serious band and truly is a tribute band.

Cosmik: Do they do any new original music in that genre or is it all Zappa covers?

Willis: It's all Zappa for now, but I've been beatin' on them to try. It's time to show people the kind of stuff that you guys write too, because everybody in the band, to a man, writes great original stuff. So Andre's got his own gigs, a couple of solo, personal type CD's out. Rick, our bass player, does. Let's see, one of our guitar players does, the keyboard player does, you know I do, there's all my stuff since Enigma records. I'm the old dinosaur.

Cosmik: Your new Project Object work seems pretty exciting, I heard that you'll be doing a date here in LA around May 10 or so. Should land almost on MOTHER'S Day!

Willis: (Laughs) Exactly, you should be there! I've never played LA with Project Object before. I did with the Band From Utopia of course, since everybody stays in LA. Haven't done it with Project Object, it should be a lot of fun.

Cosmik: Are you on the Project Object record also?

Willis: Right

Cosmik: Besides Project Object what have you been up to?

Willis: Well, I've got my new CD, (I'm) working on getting that going. There is an Ike Willis Band, believe it or not... (refers to a CD cover) since, geez, it says 81! But one (band) is in LA and I had to manufacture a new one when I moved up here to Portland ... I think you'd like my music, these days it would be called kind of alternative but it's not head bashing, music to eat glass by. It's rock and roll! ...My first release (Shoulda Gone Before I Left) was on Enigma Records and it was out before I left Zappa, and then Enigma went under, of course! (Under his breath) What a bunch of pompous... (trails off)

Cosmik: Some real life Joe's Garage Syndrome with them?

Willis: Well, they got a little too big for their britches and they pompoused themselves out of the business. Then there was my second solo album, Dirty Pictures, and that was previously on Muffin Records. I don't know what it is with me and record labels--they self-destruct! Whenever I get on them they go out of business. But I've got European distribution through EFA, so most people will be getting it through EFA and stuff. I'm pressing them myself now. Since Muffin Records went under I decided to take over and do all that stuff. Being from the Zappa School, I still own all my masters, I still own 100% of my publishing, blah, blah, blah.

Cosmik: You learned something!

Willis: Oh, I learned very, very well, my son! Yes, so I keep all that close to my vest but now I've got those two and another few projects that I've been doing with various other people like Project Object. I don't know if you're aware of when we performed Joe's Garage in its entirety.

Cosmik: Is that out as a recording?

Willis: Yeah but it's like a special CD was made, this wasn't for mass manufacture... We did that in New York at the Lion's Den. And then I've got a musical or two. There's a couple performances I've done with (former Zappa bass player) Scott Thunis and The Band From Utopia in Israel, live in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with the orchestra - God, that was just AMAZING stuff. I always dreamed of playing with an orchestra and it was great. So that kind of stuff (is what I've been up to) and it seems to me now I'm working on touring, paying the bills, plus having fun with Project Object and getting ready to, after we get off this six week US tour, start on album number three!

Cosmik: I understand before the Project Object tour you're going off to Italy. What's that all about?

Willis: As well as Project Object there's about four or five other Zappa tribute bands that I play with, even though I play with Project Object more. (In Italy) they are called Ossi Duri. They advertise themselves as a baby Zappa tribute band, because they are literally babies, the youngest in the band is 14, the oldest is 18!

Cosmik: And they like Zappa? That's great!

Willis: Not only do they like him, they are good! They can actually play this shit! I met them for the first time last year and did a little mini-tour with them. So this is where I'm heading for tomorrow. They live in Turin, Italy and they make the rounds, touring Rome, Bolonge, Maltes the whole shot. And the thing is they are literally babies, but they are really, really good! They really crack me up; they really amaze me at how good they are. So I'm going to do two weeks with them and then right back to the States to start the six week Project Object US tour.

Cosmik: One other stray question. I know Frank passed away from prostate cancer and one of the symptoms, and I don't remember where I picked this factoid up, but supposedly one of the symptoms of that kind of cancer is incontinence. In Thing Fish, as you well know since you sang the part, that's one of his conditions that makes him so repulsive.

Willis: (In character) About being incontinent! Indeed!

Cosmik: Do you think he was sending a message or signaling something that long before his cancer was announced?

Willis: Hmm, I don't know!

Cosmik: When did you first find out?

Willis: Actually he told me he was terminal a couple of years before he announced it.

Cosmik: Wow, that long before? After it was announced it was like another two years before he passed away.

Willis: Yeah, exactly. We stopped touring in '88, and I moved up to Portland and then in 89 he said, "We're not touring any more," and I asked "Well, why?" and he didn't say anything about it. He confided that he was going to doctors and stuff and he wasn't feeling very well. The thing was they couldn't figure it out...He went to four doctors in fact and by the time he got to the fifth doctor, they caught it. By that time he was terminal... So he called me and said "Look, this is what's going on and I didn't say anything about it before because I wanted to make sure. ...It looks like prostate cancer and it's terminal. I can't do anything about it. But I wanted you to know. I wanted to tell you but at the same time, keep it under your hat until I'm ready to announce it. You can tell Denise." (My wife) Denise and I have been together 25 years since college, so she was there when I met Frank and all during the Frank years, before during and after so it's like a family thing. So Frank said "Tell Denise and the kids, let them know what's going on, but keep it under your hat as far as the public is concerned until I'm ready to announce it." So that was like two years before he announced it. I walked around with that in me for a couple years really not knowing what to do.

Cosmik: You still worked on a lot of CD projects in that time of course.

Willis: Oh yeah. And then the thing was in July of 93, he gave me a call up here and said "Hey look, I'm feeling better! It looks like this thing may have gone into remission. My weight's coming back, my health is coming back. I don't know what the hell it is but it's starting to work and I got an idea!" So I asked, "Well what's that?" and he said, "Well 1995 will be the 25th anniversary of 200 Motels." And I went "Oh really?" So he goes, "How about this: you, me, Flo & Eddie, George Duke, a full orchestra, people like Tommy Mars -- we'll get some people and go out on a massive 200 Motels World Tour!" and I went, "Yeah, I think maybeee, YEAH!" And so we were making plans for that and then boom! Relapse - a couple months later in November. God, he just deteriorated so fast, it really killed me. REALLY killed me. That was like from July to November, just that quick, and the thing was we were making plans, we were going back out! I hadn't heard him so animated and so happy, and raring to go in such a long time. I was caught up in the enthusiasm, I was ready to rock n roll, not a problem, oh good we're going back out again. And then November, he was gone! I barely had time to get down there and talk to him before he died. That's how it happened. Lost my Mom the same way back in 88. After the 88 tour, my mom died of cancer. She was the same age as Frank, she was 52. Needless to say it was a serious case of déjà vu when I walked into Frank's room the week before he died. Same as with my mom, got the I.V. thing and lost half his body weight, very weak and in pain and very pissed off because my mom was a fighter! Yes he was too, man, basically he was pissed off about it.

Cosmik: I can imagine!

Willis: We were both kind of ticked off about it. Eventually he just said, "Well what the fuck, just get up there and kick ass and keep the music alive for me and just keep it going."

(C) 2001 - Rusty Pipes

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Hey! If you have a RealAudio Player, take a listen to Ike and the Project/Object guys playing our favorite Frank Zappa tune, Cosmik Debris. If you don't have a RealAudio Player... what, ya been living in a cave??? Oh. Sorry. My therapist says aggression is very... well, that's not important. What's important is that you go to www.real.com and join the new bloody century, as if it wasn't already around for years in the last centu... oh dear... I'm sorry. Just listen to the song. I mean please listen to thSHAUN, WOULD YOU GET IN HERE AND TAKE OVER?